Trinity Issues

For many the Trinity is simply an assumed doctrine, as there is no biblical basis for such a teaching.  Here we will look at the many problems and unanswered questions this doctrine result in, but first let's look at what the Trinity doctrine states.............(insert here)

IMAD Sermon:

1.  Jesus was a jew.  His FAITH was to believe in 1 God,

2. Which God did Jesus worship? (John 20:17)

3. No God the Son or God the Spirit in Bible or SOP. 

Also no discussion in NT about a 3-in-one God.  No arguments like with circumsison etc.

4. the 1st person of the trinity is the Father of Jesus, BUT the 3rd person of the Trinity FATHERED Jesus.

5. The One God of the Bible is always reffered to as a singular being, He, Him, His etc.

6. Jesis is not our comfoter

7/ No hope of glory

1: The Bible tells us there is One True God, the Father. (1 Cor 8:6, Jon 17:3,

1 Tim 2:5), yet the Trinity teaches that God is 3-in-1 (no Bible text to back this up).  

2. Why do the Father and Son NEVER talk to the Spirit?  Likewise, why does the Spirit never talk to the Father or Son?  

3 - There are over 300 verses that show us the relationship between the Father and Son. The bible is so rich in giving us understanding of this relationship, yet we have nothing that tells us of the relationship between the Father and Holy Spirit and Christ and the Holy Spirit.

4 - Who died on the cross if God cannot die?

5 - The Bible tells us there is no power in us apart from christ.

6 - John 17:3 equates eternal life to knowing the One true God, the Father. 1 John 2 says denying the Father & Son is AntiChrist.  Trinity doctrine says the father and son is role play.

7 - No man has seen God at any time, but Trinity teaches Jesus IS God.

8 - Who raised Jesus from the dead?

9 - Who is the spirit that talks to the churches in Rev?  

10 - Why is it there are only 2 thrones in heaven?

11 - Why is the counsel of peace between 2 beings?

12 - Luke 10:22

13 - Who do the apostiles only baptise in the name of Christ?  (1 John 2 says he who ackowledges Christ acknowlegdes the father also)

14 - Why is it the father alone knows the time of the 2nd coming?

15 - Could Jesus have been tempted if he is God?

16 - When Jesus died, what happened to the Trinity? Or if you suggest that Jesus didn't die, then what do you do with immortality of the soul?

17 - Who is the father if it was the Holy Spirit that came upon Mary?

18 - Jesus says HE is the only way to the Father. So where does that leave the HS?

From AS IT READS:

1. Is there one verse, anywhere in Scripture, where God speaks to and/or expresses His love for the Holy Spirit, as He often does to His only begotten Son?

2. Is there one verse, anywhere in Scripture, where God's only begotten Son speaks to and/or expresses His love for the Holy Spirit, as He often does to His God and Father?

3. Is there one verse, anywhere in Scripture, where the Holy Spirit speaks to and/or expresses His love for either God or the Son of God, as God and His Son often do towards one another?

4. Is there one verse, anywhere in Scripture, where the Holy Spirit expresses His love toward us as does the Father and the Son?

5. Is there one verse, anywhere in Scripture, where we are told that we will ever see and/or meet the Holy Spirit?

6. Is there one verse, anywhere in Scripture, where the Holy Spirit is spoken of as sitting on a throne in heaven?

7. Is there one verse, anywhere in Scripture, where “one divine being” (which trinity claims) is said to be three persons?

8. Is there one verse, anywhere in Scripture, where we find any of these terms mentioned: trinity, triune or God the Holy Spirit?

9. Why does the Scripture almost always mention the Holy Spirit as a possessive pronoun/noun, as in ‘His Spirit’, His Holy Spirit’, ‘Spirit OF God’ or ‘Spirit OF Christ’?

10. According to Matthew 1:20, we read, “fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.”

Question: If the Holy Spirit is a separate being as trinity claims, then how is it that, Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit and yet Christ continually prayed to and addressed God the Father, not the Holy Spirit, as His father (Matthew 10:32-33; Matthew 11:25-27; Matthew 12:50; Matthew 15:13; Matthew 16:17; Matthew 16:27; Matthew 18:10; Matthew 18:35).

 

Never did Christ referred Holy Spirit as His father.

11. Galatians 4:4-6 says, “But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, GOD HATH SENT FORTH THE SPIRIT OF HIS SON INTO YOUR HEARTS, CRYING, ABBA, FATHER.”

Question: If the Holy Spirit is another deity other than Christ’s own spirit, than why would he call God the Father “Abba”? Are there two sons in the Godhead?

12. Speaking of Jesus' Second Coming, Matthew 24:36 (and Mark 13:32) tells us, “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but ONLY THE FATHER.” When asked, "If Jesus was God (being omniscient), why did He not know when He would return?

 

A Trinitarian may answer, “When Christ became a man, He voluntarily restricted the use of certain divine attributes… His omniscience, omnipresence, etc.”

Question still remains: Why doesn’t the Holy Spirit know, isn’t the Holy Spirit also a divine being who is omniscient as the Father? Why ONLY the Father knows?

13. In Matthew 11:27 it says, “All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, BUT THE FATHER; neither knoweth any man the Father, SAVE THE SON, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.”

Question: How is it that only the Father knows the Son and vise a versa but the Holy Spirit is excluded? It also says, “and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.” Does this mean then that the Holy Spirit is also dependent on the Son to get to know the Father

14. In John 1:18 it says, “No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”

Question: How is it that “no one hath seen God at any time” except the Son? Surely, if the Holy Spirit was a being and was present during the creation week as trinity doctrine claims, then He would have certainly seen the Father.

15. How is it that the Holy Spirit doesn’t have a name, as does the Father and the Son?

The name “Jesus” comes from the Greek name “Iesous”, a rendition of the Hebrew Yeshua (ישוע) but if you look up Iēsous in the Strong’s Concordance, it has its origin in Hebrew which is, יְהוֹשׁוּעַ Yĕhowshuwa` (yeh·hō·shü'·ah; Strong's H3091). So the Messiah’s original name in Hebrew is Yĕhowshuwa. (“and thou shalt call his name JESUS” Matthew 1:21)

According to Strong’s Bible Concordance, the Father’s name (translated as LORD in KJV) given in Hebrew is Yĕhovah, pronounced, “yeh·hō·vä”. This is a vocalization of the Tetragrammaton, more commonly referred to as Jehovah which is an anglicized representation of Hebrew יְהֹוָה-YHWH)

Strong's Number H3068 matches the Hebrew יְהֹוָה (Yĕhovah), which occurs 6519 times in 5521 verses in the Hebrew concordance of the KJV. 

16. If the Holy Spirit is a divine person like the Father and the Son then why does the Scripture refer to the Holy Spirit as an IT? Father and the Son were never referred as IT.

Romans 8:16 says, “The Spirit itself [not himself ] beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God.” Similarly, Romans 8:26 says “the Spirit itself [again, not himself ] maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.”

Lastly consider this:

"In all the universe THERE WAS BUT ONE WHO COULD, in behalf of man, satisfy its claims. Since the divine law is as sacred as God Himself, ONLY ONE EQUAL WITH GOD could make atonement for its transgression. NONE BUT CHRIST COULD redeem fallen man from the curse of the law and bring him again into harmony with Heaven."— Ellen White, Patriarchs and Prophets p. 63

If, "ONLY ONE EQUAL WITH GOD could make atonement for its transgression." And if "NONE BUT CHRIST COULD redeem fallen man..." Then, Christ is the only one equal with God...This excludes anyone else.

"The earth was dark through misapprehension of God. That the gloomy shadows might be lightened, that the world might be brought back to God, Satan’s deceptive power was to be broken. This could not be done by force. The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God’s government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority. Only by love is love awakened. To know God is to love Him; His character must be manifested in contrast to the character of Satan. This work ONLY ONE BEING IN ALL THE UNIVERSE COULD DO. ONLY HE WHO KNEW THE HEIGHT AND DEPTH OF THE LOVE OF GOD COULD MAKE IT KNOWN. Upon the world’s dark night the Sun of Righteousness must rise, “with healing in His wings.” Malachi 4:2. {DA 22.1}

According to the above statement (from The Desire of Ages), Christ (the Sun of Righteousness) is the only being who could "MAKE IT KNOWN" to us the Father's love because He is the "ONLY ONE BEING IN ALL THE UNIVERSE ....WHO KNEW THE HEIGHT AND DEPTH OF THE LOVE OF GOD."

Question: According to SDA 28 fundamental Belief #2, "God" is defined as "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three coeternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, ALL KNOWING..." which indicates that each member of the three persons of the the godhead are omniscient. Then why is it that only Christ "knew the height and depth of the love of God? What about the other divine "being", the Holy Spirit (who is supposed to be omniscient according to trinity)

1. Why does the Father Never Speak to the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit never speak to the Father like we see the Father speak to His Son and the Messiah speak to His Father if the Spirit is a separate, Co-Equal Being with a Personality apart from YHVH, the Father and His Son? (Matthew 3:17; 17:5; John 12:28; Mark 9:7; Luke 9:35; Matthew 11:25-27; Matthew 26:39, 42; Luke 10:21, 22; 22:42; 23:34, 46; John 11:41; 17:1, 24; 2 Peter 1:17)

2. If the Holy Spirit is another, separate being, wouldn't it have a Spirit like the Father and the Son? Ex: "The Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ." The Spirit of... the Spirit? (John 4:23, 24; 1 Corinthians 15:45; Romans 8:9; 1 Peter 1:11, Galatians 4:6; Matthew 10:20)

3. Why is the Holy Spirit never seen sitting on the throne of YHVH, as the Father and Son, if it is a third separate being/entity in a trinity? (Mark 16:19; Colossians 3:1; 1 Peter 3:22; Hebrews 8:1; 12:2; Revelation 3:21; 5:13; 22:1; 22:3)

4. Why is every instance of baptism in the book of Acts "in the name of Jesus" and not according to the "baptismal formula" of "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" found in Matthew 28:20? (Act 2:38; 8:12 & 16; 10:48; 19:3; 22:16)

5. If the Spirit is a third co-equal, co-eternal being/entity in a trinity, where is the verse showing that we should "honour the Spirit" as we honour the Father or His Son? (John 5:23)

6. If the Spirit is a third co-equal, co-eternal being/entity in a trinity, where is the verse showing that the Spirit is equal to the Father like we see the Messiah being equal to His Father? (Philippians 2:6; John 17:11, 22; Hebrews 1:3, 4)

7. If the Spirit is a third co-equal, co-eternal being/entity in a trinity, where is the verse showing that we should worship the Spirit as we worship the Father and His Son? We are told to "worship YHVH IN Spirit". (Philippians 3:3; Hebrews 1:6; John 4:21-24; Matthew 28:9; Mark 5:6; 1 Corinthians 14:25)

8. If the Messiah is a co-equal, co-eternal being in a trinity, why is He referred to as the "express image" (exact copy) of the Father, the "image of the invisible God"? (Colossians 1:15; 2 Corinthians 4:4; Hebrews 1:3)

9. If the Messiah is a co-equal, co-eternal being in a trinity, why does He have a God whom He worships and is subject to? (Hebrews 1:8, 9; 1 Corinthians 11:3; John 20:17, Matthew 27:46; Mark 15:34)

10. If YHVH is a trinity of three co-equal, co-eternal beings, why are we told there is "one God" whom specifically is the Father? (1 Corinthians 8:6; James 3:9; Romans 15:6; Ephesians 4:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3)

11. If YHVH is a trinity of three co-equal, co-eternal beings, why is "life eternal" only knowing two beings, "the Father and His Son" and not Father, Son, and Spirit? (John 17:3)

12. If YHVH is a trinity of three co-equal, co-eternal beings, why is it that our true fellowship is with two beings, "the Father and His Son" and not Father, Son, and Spirit? (1 John 1:3)

13. If the Messiah isn't the true only-begotten Son of YHVH, why does the Bible say that the Father gave His "only-begotten Son"? Doesn't this mean that the Father HAD a Son in order to SEND a son? (John 3:16, 17; 1 John 4:9, 10, 14; John 5:23; Galatians 4:4)

14. Why is the Messiah the only way to the Father, according to John 14:6, if the Holy Spirit, as someone else separate from the Son, is also a way to the Father? (John 16:13; Romans 8:11, 14; Ephesians 4:30)

15. How does the Holy Spirit, as a separate entity, make intercession/mediate for us if the Messiah is the "only mediator between God and man"? (1 Timothy 2:5; Romans 8:26)

NOTE: If the Spirit, as a separate being, is pointing us to the Messiah

and the Father, this would mean that the Spirit is ALSO a mediator/intercessor. This makes TWO mediators. This cannot be! We have one mediator between God and man, "the man Christ Jesus". (1 Timothy 2:5)

16. If the Messiah isn't the true only-begotten Son of YHVH, why does the Bible say that He came forth from the Father? (John 7:29; 8:42; 14:28, 29; 16:27; 17:8; Proverbs 8:22-30; Micah 5:2)

17. If YHVH is the Father of the Messiah, why is Mary "found with child of the Holy Ghost" according to Matthew 1:18-20? Wouldn't that make the Holy Spirit the Father of the Messiah? (Matthew 1:18, 20; Luke 1:35)

18. If the Holy Spirit is more than the very Spirit OF God (YHVH), why is the Spirit able to be "breathed" onto the disciples by the Messiah when there is no scriptural evidence for the Son or the Father being "breathed" out? (John 20:22)

19. If the Spirit is more than the very presence and power of YHVH and a legitimate third being, why is one able to be "baptized with the Holy Spirit"? There isn't a reference for being baptized with the Messiah or His Father in the bible. (Matthew 3:11; Mark 1:8; Luke 3:16; John 1:33)

20. Are we Sealed by the Father, or the Holy Spirit, or does that mean the same thing because the Holy Spirit of YHVH is His own personal presence and power, not a third being? (2 Corinthians 1:21, 22; John 6:27; Ephesians 1:13; 4:30)

21. Since the Messiah has a God who He worships, where are the verses showing us that the Father worships His Son or His Spirit if the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are co-equal, co-eternal beings in a trinity?

22. Every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea give blessing and honour to two beings, why not three? (Revelation 5:13)